WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.820 Well, joining me now is a man who is personally and professionally affected by all of this. 00:00:04.820 --> 00:00:09.860 James Cridland is editor of Podnews, a daily podcast newsletter. 00:00:09.860 --> 00:00:14.980 And he also has the wonderful job description of radio futurologist. 00:00:14.980 --> 00:00:17.800 He consults on, well, the future of radio. 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:20.280 And he lives in Brisbane, Australia. 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:26.220 So he is a frequent user of BBC Sounds, or he was, and now the new BBC app. 00:00:26.220 --> 00:00:28.000 James, welcome. 00:00:28.200 --> 00:00:30.220 Thanks very much for coming back on to Feedback. 00:00:30.220 --> 00:00:35.580 And the big question that many people are asking is why did the BBC do this? 00:00:35.580 --> 00:00:39.060 Now, I did put that to Jonathan Wall, the head of Sounds. 00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:43.360 But lots of listeners said the answer he gave left them none the wiser. 00:00:43.360 --> 00:00:45.240 So maybe you could give us your take. 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:47.340 It's all to do with music rights. 00:00:47.340 --> 00:00:51.620 So most of the BBC's domestic radio output obviously includes music. 00:00:51.620 --> 00:00:53.460 And music needs to be paid for. 00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:56.280 And apparently on Radio 2, if you play a song there, 00:00:56.360 --> 00:00:58.980 it's hundreds of pounds every time you play a song. 00:00:58.980 --> 00:01:02.560 And that money obviously goes to music artists and to record companies and stuff. 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:07.280 But the BBC is only paying for music rights within the UK. 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:12.940 And for the last 30 years, because that's how long the BBC has been streaming abroad, 00:01:12.940 --> 00:01:17.960 the BBC has essentially got away with streaming its radio stations internationally because they 00:01:17.960 --> 00:01:19.500 haven't put advertising around them. 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:22.560 They haven't been marketing them to people overseas. 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:24.040 But now they are. 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:28.980 Obviously, the BBC is doing a lot of commercial activities now, including advertising outside of 00:01:28.980 --> 00:01:34.780 the UK, and that adds the equivalent of £91 a year for every licence fee payer. 00:01:34.780 --> 00:01:36.620 And that's great. 00:01:36.620 --> 00:01:40.080 But it does mean that if the BBC is earning money from overseas audiences, 00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:44.800 then you can see why the record companies and the music artists will want some of that money. 00:01:44.800 --> 00:01:47.980 And the problem is that's really hard to do and really expensive. 00:01:48.220 --> 00:01:53.860 So the BBC is essentially left in a situation where they can't risk either promoting or earning 00:01:53.860 --> 00:01:56.140 money from music radio overseas. 00:01:56.140 --> 00:02:02.480 So they've done this little tiptoe round the rights in order to firstly having to close the 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:06.900 BBC Sounds out, but also secondly, having to essentially hide the fact that you can still 00:02:06.900 --> 00:02:10.600 tune into the BBC's music stations overseas. 00:02:10.880 --> 00:02:15.540 Many of our listeners have said that they would have been happy to have paid a subscription 00:02:15.540 --> 00:02:17.260 for BBC Sounds. 00:02:17.260 --> 00:02:19.020 That ship's clearly sailed. 00:02:19.020 --> 00:02:23.540 I don't think it's as easy as just pay some money and then everything will go away. 00:02:23.540 --> 00:02:29.060 Because again, as soon as you pay some money, then those music rights, which are in the tens 00:02:29.060 --> 00:02:32.140 of millions in the UK alone, need to be paid for. 00:02:32.140 --> 00:02:35.440 I mean, the BBC annual report was out a couple of weeks ago. 00:02:35.440 --> 00:02:37.520 And if you look in there, it's quite interesting. 00:02:37.760 --> 00:02:44.060 Only 6% of all plays in the BBC Sounds app is for on-demand music radio. 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:45.120 Only 6%. 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:52.760 So actually, it's a very small, yes, very vocal, but very small amount of audiences, certainly 00:02:52.760 --> 00:02:53.860 in terms of on-demand. 00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:58.200 And I think that's one of the issues is that it's relatively small. 00:02:58.200 --> 00:03:04.200 And so therefore, for the BBC to all of a sudden pay hundreds of millions on music rights 00:03:04.200 --> 00:03:07.740 globally, which they would have to do, that's not going to be covered. 00:03:07.760 --> 00:03:11.960 by a few well-meaning people paying a little bit extra. 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:19.120 And of course, this new BBC app is about BBC Studios, the commercial arm of BBC, trying 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:22.120 to monetise BBC content outside the UK. 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.640 That's part of the reason for the new app. 00:03:24.640 --> 00:03:25.360 Yeah, absolutely. 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.780 So there's advertising in there. 00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:30.840 There's advertising on the BBC website as well. 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.180 There's also advertising in BBC podcasts outside of the UK. 00:03:34.180 --> 00:03:35.620 There has been for a long time. 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:39.720 And so outside the UK, you can pay to get rid of those ads if you want to. 00:03:39.720 --> 00:03:41.300 It's about £35 a year. 00:03:41.300 --> 00:03:49.780 But all of this goes to paying for you, paying for the BBC public broadcasting. 00:03:49.780 --> 00:03:55.220 Let's talk about this new BBC app, because I've now had a chance to have a look at it. 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:59.040 And it doesn't feel, it's not an audio app, is it? 00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:01.500 I mean, it's a whole BBC app. 00:04:01.500 --> 00:04:05.540 And it does feel rather, to me, like audio is tacked on. 00:04:05.540 --> 00:04:06.960 You're living in Australia. 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:08.000 How are you finding it? 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:12.340 Our time zone means, obviously, that catch-up is a very helpful thing. 00:04:12.340 --> 00:04:15.460 And with all of these changes, we don't have catch-up anymore. 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:22.480 We only have live radio and particularly, it's quite difficult on the BBC app to find some 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:26.240 of the content because there's no special search just for the audio. 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:31.600 So if you search for the Archers, for example, then you get lots of stories about sport, which 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:36.380 is great, until you finally find the Archers radio programme, you know, underneath. 00:04:36.820 --> 00:04:39.780 So I think from that point of view, it's not quite there. 00:04:39.780 --> 00:04:43.280 It's a news app with audio shoehorned into it. 00:04:43.280 --> 00:04:48.820 Now, one of the biggest issues from many of our listeners is the lack of on-demand listening, 00:04:48.820 --> 00:04:52.340 particularly for programmes like Radio 4's flagship today. 00:04:52.340 --> 00:04:58.140 Time zones like yours, or indeed in the US, where listening live isn't an option, mean that 00:04:58.140 --> 00:05:01.300 unless you want to get up in the middle of the night, you just can't hear us anymore. 00:05:01.300 --> 00:05:03.720 Do you think that could change? 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:05.660 I mean, that's not a rights issue, is it? 00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:13.060 I guess from the BBC's point of view, if I was to put a BBC hat on for a second, I guess 00:05:13.060 --> 00:05:17.120 what I would be thinking is most of these shows are available as podcasts. 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.160 Podcasts already have advertising in them. 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:25.760 And so therefore, I don't want people using catch-up when I would much rather that they 00:05:25.760 --> 00:05:29.160 used the podcast version, which has the advertising in it. 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:34.160 And that's fine when you're looking at Monday night comedy, for example. 00:05:34.340 --> 00:05:39.100 That's fine when you're looking at More or Less, which is one of my favourite shows, but it's 00:05:39.100 --> 00:05:45.280 not necessarily so fine when you're looking at the Today programme or things like PM or all 00:05:45.280 --> 00:05:45.740 of that. 00:05:45.740 --> 00:05:52.980 And particularly when you have a look at the BBC.com website, you find a link to listen again 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:56.220 to the Today programme or to PM. 00:05:56.220 --> 00:06:03.780 You click it and it flashes and then it gives you a page saying this content is unavailable. 00:06:03.780 --> 00:06:07.640 So it almost looks as if you followed a broken link. 00:06:07.640 --> 00:06:14.520 There hasn't been any handholding of the audience to actually explain what's going on and to explain 00:06:14.520 --> 00:06:16.440 how you can have a listen to PM. 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:20.700 For example, there is a podcast for that particular show. 00:06:20.700 --> 00:06:26.780 There is also a Best of the Today programme podcast, which you can get. 00:06:26.780 --> 00:06:32.280 Yeah, I had to look at the Best of the Today programme and I couldn't work out how you got 00:06:32.280 --> 00:06:33.760 an updated version of that. 00:06:33.760 --> 00:06:37.540 No, it hasn't been updated since October 2024. 00:06:37.540 --> 00:06:43.060 So one would assume that either they've forgotten about it or there's been nothing good on that 00:06:43.060 --> 00:06:44.260 programme ever since then. 00:06:44.260 --> 00:06:51.220 A number of listeners have said to me, well, look, you can just use a VPN, a virtual private 00:06:51.220 --> 00:06:55.360 network, which sort of fools the internet into thinking that your device is in the UK when 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:55.820 it isn't. 00:06:55.820 --> 00:06:58.480 But that's really not what the BBC wants, is it? 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:02.020 Yeah, I mean, I don't really want to recommend a VPN here. 00:07:02.020 --> 00:07:06.660 It's technically illegal to break content protection in some countries, including the US. 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:07.580 And this is what this is. 00:07:07.580 --> 00:07:08.500 It's content protection. 00:07:08.500 --> 00:07:15.920 But live radio is still available everywhere, just not promoted by the BBC anymore. 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:20.960 The easiest way to get BBC live radio, by the way, is to use a web browser. 00:07:20.960 --> 00:07:22.220 Just use a web browser. 00:07:22.220 --> 00:07:25.620 You don't need an app and go to the old radio websites. 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:32.160 If you remember, they used to be at bbc.co.uk slash radio 2 or bbc.co.uk slash radio Sheffield. 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:33.960 Those work anywhere in the world. 00:07:33.960 --> 00:07:37.760 You can find a big list in the FAQ section in the app as well. 00:07:37.760 --> 00:07:41.280 If there was one thing you could change about this new app, what would it be? 00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:47.680 I would certainly include on-demand radio for Radio 4 and for the World Service. 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:50.920 I'm surprised that Radio 4 Extra isn't there. 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:53.120 Frankly, I'm surprised that 5 Live isn't there either. 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:56.260 But I would certainly include on-demand radio there. 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.540 I don't think that it's going to come back for music radio, I'm afraid. 00:08:00.540 --> 00:08:07.900 But for Radio 4, for the World Service, make sure that you can search and find the shows that you want to have a listen to. 00:08:07.900 --> 00:08:10.680 Make sure there's a really clear programme schedule in there. 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:15.360 And bringing on-demand back for those services, I think, would be a really good plan. 00:08:15.440 --> 00:08:17.620 Well, let's hope someone's listening. 00:08:17.620 --> 00:08:20.400 James Cridland, radio futurologist. 00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:21.160 Many thanks. 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:22.220 Thank you. 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:25.120 BBC Studios gave feedback this statement. 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:34.080 We appreciate the feedback we've received from international audiences on the new listening experience available on bbc.com and the BBC app. 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:44.380 This is a newly integrated platform that brings together the best of the BBC in audio, text and video, with documentaries launching soon for US audiences. 00:08:44.940 --> 00:08:55.200 Since the launch, we've implemented several improvements based on listener input, including a BBC radio station directory, and we're adding catch-up functionality. 00:08:55.200 --> 00:09:09.060 While the vast majority of BBC audio content, including podcasts and live radio, is available, there are some differences from BBC Sounds, which was developed specifically for UK licence fee payers. 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:20.100 In contrast, bbc.com and the BBC app are commercial platforms designed for international audiences, with revenue generated, reinvested to support the BBC. 00:09:20.100 --> 00:09:27.240 We remain committed to refining the service and continuing to listen as audiences explore the new platform.