WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.260 It's one of the features of radio, probably since the 50s or 60s, 00:00:08.260 --> 00:00:14.600 that music was a big force behind why people listened to the radio. 00:00:14.600 --> 00:00:20.900 So this morning, it's that time again where you and I look at something 00:00:20.900 --> 00:00:25.740 that used to be done in your parents' generation, perhaps basic life skills 00:00:25.740 --> 00:00:30.840 or events or moments that were normally passed down from generation to generation 00:00:30.840 --> 00:00:34.600 that make life richer, calmer, more fun, more practical, more economical. 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:40.020 Skills often that weren't taught so much to younger generations. 00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:42.100 It's about teaching young pups old dogs tricks. 00:00:42.100 --> 00:00:44.240 And today, it's how to appreciate radio. 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:50.100 So I grew up in my nana's house a lot of time because my mum was working. 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:51.380 Both my parents worked. 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:56.000 So nana would look after us and she had a big old wooden valve radio 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.660 in the corner of the lounge room. 00:00:57.660 --> 00:01:03.580 You'd turn it on, the lights would come on, and you'd feel a slight radiated heat from it. 00:01:03.580 --> 00:01:07.760 Then after about 30 seconds, noise would start to come out of it. 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:15.540 And then you would be transported away to a different place with the voice of the radio announcer. 00:01:17.020 --> 00:01:20.380 And that was a very – you'd almost look at it. 00:01:20.380 --> 00:01:21.440 You'd almost watch it. 00:01:21.440 --> 00:01:27.860 But we'd lie on the carpet in the lounge room, and our imaginations would be taken away. 00:01:27.860 --> 00:01:35.920 Now radio is a very different experience technologically, but also experience is the same. 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:36.740 It's about the imagination. 00:01:37.700 --> 00:01:43.160 So joining me in the studio is a man who is the radio futurologist for us. 00:01:43.160 --> 00:01:45.100 His name is James Cridland. 00:01:45.100 --> 00:01:46.460 James, thanks for joining me. 00:01:46.460 --> 00:01:48.280 It's a great pleasure to be here, Steve. 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:50.800 How do you appreciate radio? 00:01:50.800 --> 00:01:52.240 How do you listen to radio? 00:01:52.240 --> 00:01:57.960 Oh, I mean, I think one of the important things about listening to radio is to actually listen to it. 00:01:57.960 --> 00:02:00.920 Quite a lot of the time, we put radio on in the background. 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:06.480 We put radio on while we're doing other things, and actually it really changes if you just sit and you listen. 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:19.640 And you are – you know, maybe you're eyes closed, sitting on the deck, and just listening is a very different experience to having something on while you're driving, while you're doing the washing up, whatever it is. 00:02:19.760 --> 00:02:23.860 So I think that's one of the first things to really appreciate what radio can offer. 00:02:23.860 --> 00:02:41.440 I remember years ago, I think you got frustrated because you had – you pointed out that radio stations, when they sort of tell people about radio or market it, they use this old image, this old picture of a very old – like my grandparents' generation of what a radio was. 00:02:41.440 --> 00:02:44.920 Whereas now radio is almost invisible. 00:02:45.820 --> 00:02:46.300 Yeah, you're right. 00:02:46.300 --> 00:02:52.820 I mean, and I have to say, in your reception here, there is this beautiful collection of old-fashioned radios. 00:02:52.820 --> 00:02:58.760 And so people all think – I think – of radio as being very old-fashioned and all of that. 00:02:58.760 --> 00:03:06.100 And actually, you know, I mean, we're listening – you know, many of your listeners right now, Steve, are listening to this station on AM, on 612. 00:03:06.100 --> 00:03:07.540 But they might be listening on DAB. 00:03:07.540 --> 00:03:08.960 They might be listening on a mobile phone. 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:13.360 They might be, weirdly, listening to the radio on the TV on Channel 25. 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.420 There's lots of different ways – 00:03:15.420 --> 00:03:16.320 This is a wonderful irony, in fact. 00:03:16.320 --> 00:03:17.020 Yes, I know. 00:03:17.020 --> 00:03:17.940 It's just bizarre. 00:03:17.940 --> 00:03:26.180 So the wonderful thing about radio is that it is basically wherever a speaker is, you can get that to play ABC Radio Brisbane. 00:03:27.020 --> 00:03:35.520 And that actually means that radio can reach many more people in different places, in different times than it has ever been able to do. 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:41.100 And, of course, not just live radio, as we're broadcasting now, but also on-demand radio and podcasts. 00:03:41.100 --> 00:03:47.300 So, you know, that's been a big change over the last – you know, over the last 10, 15, 20 years. 00:03:48.160 --> 00:03:50.500 Hey, Alexa, turn on ABC Radio Brisbane. 00:03:50.500 --> 00:03:55.820 You are going to get texts now, Steve, from lots of people. 00:03:55.820 --> 00:03:57.640 So tell me – explain what I've just done. 00:03:57.640 --> 00:04:02.400 Because you've been – I've been reading some of your stuff about speakers or Google speakers. 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.260 Hey, Google, turn on ABC Radio Brisbane. 00:04:05.260 --> 00:04:05.820 There's another one. 00:04:05.820 --> 00:04:07.740 What's happening in someone's house? 00:04:08.940 --> 00:04:17.960 So what is hopefully not happening in somebody's house is lots and lots of smart speakers beginning to listen to the radio and beginning to play the radio out. 00:04:17.960 --> 00:04:19.500 So smart speakers are radios? 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:20.300 Yeah, absolutely. 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:22.680 Now, I don't have a radio at home. 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:30.700 I wake up every morning to ABC Radio Brisbane and, you know, but it's my Google speaker that is waking me up. 00:04:30.700 --> 00:04:36.400 I don't have a radio, a DAB radio or, you know, heaven for fend, an AM radio. 00:04:36.760 --> 00:04:39.980 You know, I have, you know, streaming over the Internet. 00:04:39.980 --> 00:04:41.800 And to be honest, that doesn't matter. 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.760 At the end of the day, it's still radio to most people. 00:04:45.760 --> 00:04:53.200 Interestingly, there's a big debate in the U.S. as to whether, you know, streaming radio on the Internet is still proper radio. 00:04:53.200 --> 00:04:55.160 I think it is. 00:04:55.160 --> 00:05:00.900 But there are people who think that the only radio you can possibly have is through AM and FM. 00:05:00.900 --> 00:05:04.680 But, you know, lots of different ways of consuming radio. 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:16.520 But, of course, you know, the definition of radio is both what a radio is and how radio gets broadcast, but also the type of thing that you are listening to. 00:05:16.520 --> 00:05:25.600 And, you know, live radio is very different to pre-recorded, on-demand radio, to podcasts and to other things. 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:27.920 But are they still radio? 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:28.620 Question. 00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:32.060 So I've tried to get my head around this as a radio presenter. 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:46.760 Because there's been so many technological advances ever since the Italian guy, Marconi, invented, you know, sending a radio signal over, transmitting it, to where we are now, where it's this magical thing in the ether where you can say, hey, Google, turn on ABC Radio Brisbane. 00:05:48.880 --> 00:05:55.160 When we do the ABC Open Day, the open house, they ask me to explain to people, you know, one section of the building. 00:05:55.160 --> 00:06:02.100 I say, for me, radio has become the relationship that I have with you, with the listener. 00:06:02.100 --> 00:06:02.640 Yeah. 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:09.440 It's not so much about the thing, the device, because you've got to, you could have all sorts of different devices to listen. 00:06:09.440 --> 00:06:12.560 But it's we're in a relationship now. 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:25.720 And when I, you know, speak, hopefully you imagine something that I'm talking about, and then you can react, you can talk back to me by text or phoning in, or just yelling at the radio, as I like to do sometimes. 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:26.940 You know, that's nonsense. 00:06:26.940 --> 00:06:31.300 You know, in a sense, it's almost a relationship. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:32.860 Yeah, it is. 00:06:32.860 --> 00:06:38.900 And I think that's why people get very nervous and upset when their favorite voices go away. 00:06:38.900 --> 00:06:47.280 I mean, to me, I find that time between Christmas and the middle of January really weird, because all of my friends have gone. 00:06:47.280 --> 00:06:51.060 You're all on holiday. 00:06:51.060 --> 00:06:51.620 You're busy. 00:06:51.620 --> 00:06:52.060 I don't know. 00:06:52.060 --> 00:06:56.460 You're getting your long, flowing, blonde hair restyled or something. 00:06:56.460 --> 00:06:56.800 Of course. 00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:57.380 Yes, yes. 00:06:58.200 --> 00:07:03.560 And so, therefore, all we hear are these strange voices that we've not heard. 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:08.020 And that's a very strange experience for a radio listener. 00:07:08.020 --> 00:07:16.540 And I think there is something to be said for that relationship between a radio announcer and the audience. 00:07:16.760 --> 00:07:19.480 I mean, I was on the radio a long, long time ago. 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:20.400 They put me on the radio. 00:07:20.400 --> 00:07:20.980 Can you imagine? 00:07:20.980 --> 00:07:22.780 You have a beautiful voice. 00:07:22.780 --> 00:07:23.960 You speak well. 00:07:23.960 --> 00:07:24.980 You do. 00:07:24.980 --> 00:07:26.460 And I was doing... 00:07:26.460 --> 00:07:27.100 I'm being serious. 00:07:27.100 --> 00:07:28.340 You actually speak very well, James. 00:07:28.340 --> 00:07:28.540 Thank you. 00:07:28.540 --> 00:07:29.220 Well, thank you, Steve. 00:07:29.940 --> 00:07:33.200 And I was doing an evening show on a music station. 00:07:33.200 --> 00:07:38.840 And for the first year, I was there making a big thing of my birthday and saying, it's coming out to March the 18th. 00:07:38.840 --> 00:07:42.640 You've still got time to send in your presents and all this kind of stuff. 00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:44.500 And so I did that for the first year. 00:07:44.500 --> 00:07:47.380 The second year, I didn't know whether I would still be on the air. 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.060 I'd handed my notice in and everything else. 00:07:50.060 --> 00:08:00.240 But I still got on my birthday, I still got cards that people had spent money on, had put stamps on, sent through the post. 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:02.900 I still had cards and presents sent to me. 00:08:02.900 --> 00:08:05.560 And that was back in the 1990s. 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:11.420 So people would have copied my birthday from one diary to the next diary at the end of the year. 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:16.660 And people were still doing that because they have that relationship with the voices that they hear. 00:08:17.060 --> 00:08:22.160 And, you know, I talk a lot about what the future of radio is at radio conferences around the world. 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:27.500 And really, the future of radio for me is human connection and shared experience. 00:08:27.500 --> 00:08:30.460 It's the human connection that we get from radio. 00:08:30.460 --> 00:08:37.060 And that shared experience, that shared experience might be for ABC Radio Brisbane, might be the fact that we all live in this fantastic place. 00:08:37.060 --> 00:08:39.420 That is part of our shared experience. 00:08:39.420 --> 00:08:42.540 But the shared experience could be other things as well. 00:08:42.540 --> 00:08:46.240 And that, to me, is where the future of radio is. 00:08:46.640 --> 00:08:55.620 Less about the technology and more about those human beings being real and relevant, talking about things that matter to everybody. 00:08:56.420 --> 00:09:01.400 My discussion with James Cridland, radio futurologist, is on how to appreciate radio. 00:09:01.400 --> 00:09:03.700 And James has pointed out, listen to it. 00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:06.660 It takes time, in a sense. 00:09:06.660 --> 00:09:11.440 I was an artist or someone else said, listening implies respect. 00:09:12.400 --> 00:09:16.260 Actually, the listener sent me a text on who had actually quoted that. 00:09:16.260 --> 00:09:18.520 But listening implies respect. 00:09:18.520 --> 00:09:21.700 But it is a relational process, isn't it? 00:09:21.700 --> 00:09:24.200 You're in a relationship with someone. 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.260 Where is this relationship heading? 00:09:26.260 --> 00:09:28.660 You travel around the world. 00:09:28.660 --> 00:09:31.060 It's very dominated by technology. 00:09:31.060 --> 00:09:32.160 So my listeners are listening. 00:09:32.560 --> 00:09:37.920 So Chris says, well, bugger, thanks to your guest speaker, I now realise that I'm weird listening to you on the TV. 00:09:37.920 --> 00:09:38.900 Thank you, Chris. 00:09:38.900 --> 00:09:39.600 Says a smiley. 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:40.020 Thank you, Chris. 00:09:40.020 --> 00:09:46.200 Sam of South McLean says, I recall waking up at my grandparents' home when we would have a sleepover. 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:48.240 The sound of ABC News would come on the wireless. 00:09:48.660 --> 00:09:51.540 My dad was a radio listener when my father passed away. 00:09:51.540 --> 00:09:54.700 My mother still puts the wireless on in his bedroom. 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:55.660 Says Sam. 00:09:55.660 --> 00:09:59.000 I mean, that's a deep, strong, cross-generational relationship. 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:05.740 When you travel around the world and look at all that, because technology is just going crazy in its changes and advances. 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:11.580 How long will it be before people, I mean, people are able to communicate back with the radio now, aren't they? 00:10:11.580 --> 00:10:13.260 Because of digital technology. 00:10:13.260 --> 00:10:14.760 Yeah, they are much, much more. 00:10:14.760 --> 00:10:21.500 I mean, I remember a big television star that used to be a big radio star in the UK, and he was a big radio star. 00:10:21.500 --> 00:10:28.000 But he was a radio star in those times when the only way that you could communicate with the radio was by sending in a postcard. 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:34.320 And so he would say something, and then three days later, he would get a deluge of postcards coming in. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:42.000 And he took time away from the radio, did some TV work, then was cured, came back to the radio. 00:10:43.700 --> 00:10:48.480 And one of the things that had changed was the fact that you could send text messages. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:59.040 And the first thing he saw as he opened his microphone and started talking was a text message not being very polite about him. 00:10:59.040 --> 00:11:01.580 And he thought, gosh, the world has changed. 00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:06.740 All of a sudden, I get this instant feedback, and not all of it is going to be particularly good. 00:11:06.940 --> 00:11:14.180 Yes, yes, I've received a few of those, character assessments that are fairly blunt on my lack of personal quality. 00:11:14.180 --> 00:11:20.220 So, yeah, so, you know, so the world has changed and has moved on. 00:11:20.220 --> 00:11:21.760 But I think you're absolutely right. 00:11:21.760 --> 00:11:26.360 It is that relationship with the voice that you hear every single day. 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:35.280 And we saw that an awful lot, of course, in the pandemic, where we saw actually the amount of listening to music radio, music intensive radio going down, 00:11:35.280 --> 00:11:42.520 and the amount of listening to speech radio, human beings talking about what they were going through went up. 00:11:42.640 --> 00:11:46.180 And I think that has a lot for what people want from their radio. 00:11:46.180 --> 00:11:48.120 My guess is James Cridland. 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:49.720 So I read your newsletters. 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:51.020 You send out newsletters, and I read them. 00:11:51.020 --> 00:11:51.920 I find them really interesting. 00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:52.720 I work in radio. 00:11:52.720 --> 00:12:01.340 You spoke at a U.K. conference recently for religious radio broadcasters, and you noted something very – Christian radio broadcasters – and you noted something very different. 00:12:02.020 --> 00:12:04.680 You said they had a remarkably pure way of working. 00:12:04.680 --> 00:12:06.900 Explain what you meant with that. 00:12:06.900 --> 00:12:07.540 I was quite fascinated. 00:12:07.540 --> 00:12:09.180 You thought they had quite a – explain that. 00:12:09.180 --> 00:12:10.540 Can you recall that email you sent out? 00:12:10.540 --> 00:12:10.980 Yeah. 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:16.680 So this was in the U.S., actually, and lots and lots of Christian broadcasters in the U.S. 00:12:16.680 --> 00:12:19.480 Of course, there's one here as well. 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:28.060 And the difference between a commercial radio broadcaster and a Christian radio broadcaster is the funding, where the money comes from. 00:12:28.060 --> 00:12:30.880 For a commercial radio broadcaster, it comes from the advertisers. 00:12:31.520 --> 00:12:38.660 For a Christian radio broadcaster, more often than not, it comes from people who are just listening to that particular radio station. 00:12:38.660 --> 00:12:39.040 Their audience. 00:12:39.040 --> 00:12:52.740 Yeah, and you're asking them, you know, we would like $10, please, from you, and lots of people send that money in, which changes the way that you think about radio, because all of a sudden, you're not trying to focus on a massive audience. 00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:59.780 You're not trying to focus on reaching as many people as possible or being very careful what you say because the advertisers might get upset. 00:13:00.680 --> 00:13:05.680 What you end up doing is you end up focusing on the person that really matters, the listener. 00:13:05.680 --> 00:13:07.140 So there's no impediment. 00:13:07.140 --> 00:13:07.660 Yeah. 00:13:07.940 --> 00:13:14.640 To whoever your niche is, whether it be Christian or something else, you're speaking to your people, or you assume you are. 00:13:14.640 --> 00:13:27.300 Yeah, and so actually you focus much more on what your listener wants, and if your listener doesn't like what you are doing, well, that actually threatens, you know, your entire station if you're not careful. 00:13:27.300 --> 00:13:28.300 So you get instant feedback. 00:13:28.300 --> 00:13:34.240 Yeah, and so – and that's a very different way, particularly coming from a commercial radio background. 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:43.940 That's a very different way of thinking about things where actually for most commercial radio stations, you care about what the advertisers think first and foremost because they're the people that pay the bills. 00:13:44.940 --> 00:13:49.960 And then you worry about what the audience thinks, well, you know, that was a different way. 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:58.000 And I think that was interesting because it was a really positive conference that I ended up going to. 00:13:58.160 --> 00:14:27.060 Lots of lots of younger people, lots of people who really believe in what radio can do there, and very different to the types of radio conference, particularly in the U.S. that I go to, which is full of – well, I mean, I'm the youngest person in the room, and I'm 55, you know, so full of the younger – full of, you know, older people who are remembering what radio was like 30 years ago. 00:14:27.280 --> 00:14:37.400 It's different, but that difference, I think, can be embraced rather than be, you know, rather than be a concern, I think. 00:14:37.400 --> 00:14:54.180 Citizen radio or community radio stations can do well because they have niche programs, like an hour for – there might be the gay and lesbian hour, then there might be the death metal hour, then there might be – you know, so they know who – what their audience needs or desires are for that particular moment. 00:14:54.560 --> 00:15:01.620 For the ABC, it's a bit broader, since we have to be everything to everyone, which is quite a difficult – quite a difficult thing to do. 00:15:01.620 --> 00:15:04.980 Although this station doesn't have to be, but the ABC has to be in total. 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:10.220 So, you know, so if you look at, you know, Triple J, which is, you know, obviously a very successful – 00:15:10.220 --> 00:15:11.120 The young people. 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:12.420 Radio station for the young people. 00:15:12.420 --> 00:15:29.720 I mean, over a quarter of a million people in this city under the age of 18 are listening to the radio every week, which is a tremendous number, mostly to the commercial music stations, but well done to the 17,000 under 18s who are listening to this station, which is a good thing. 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:34.440 But, yeah, you know, radio is still really popular for younger audiences. 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:36.640 Now, they are expecting more on-demand content. 00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:39.380 They're expecting to listen on their own device. 00:15:39.380 --> 00:15:41.280 But it's still a very popular thing. 00:15:41.640 --> 00:15:43.140 Rod has sent us a message. 00:15:43.140 --> 00:15:44.940 Steve, stop! 00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:46.140 Exclamation mark. 00:15:46.140 --> 00:15:52.620 My phone opened twice when you just said, hey, Google, and waited for my instruction. 00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:58.960 I listen most days on my smart speaker, and both it and my phone wait for that two-word phrase. 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.040 Rod, it gave me a perverse pleasure. 00:16:01.040 --> 00:16:03.440 Thank you very much. 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:05.540 Dave says, totally agree. 00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:10.660 Radio helps lonely people feel part of the community, says Dave. 00:16:10.660 --> 00:16:12.240 Dave, thank you very much. 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.400 And that's radio, in a sense, so that's that relational moment that Dave is pointing out. 00:16:17.400 --> 00:16:18.080 It's a relationship. 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:19.100 It's not a technology. 00:16:19.100 --> 00:16:20.300 It's actually a relationship. 00:16:20.300 --> 00:16:24.280 Yeah, it is a relationship, and it's getting closer to your audience. 00:16:24.460 --> 00:16:27.960 I mean, you know this more than anybody else, Steve. 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:35.160 I mean, 113 people, 113,000 people tuning into this show, and your audience figures are going up. 00:16:35.160 --> 00:16:42.820 And one of the reasons why that is happening is that, you know, you are in tune with what your audience wants to hear. 00:16:42.820 --> 00:16:47.740 And that relationship is a relationship which continues, you know, to grow. 00:16:47.740 --> 00:16:53.680 And you've been on this station for years and years and years, and people understand what you're about and why you're here. 00:16:53.780 --> 00:16:58.680 And that's one of the real success stories about radio is that it's consistent. 00:16:58.680 --> 00:17:00.180 It's always there. 00:17:00.180 --> 00:17:09.280 And the same voices, ideally, year after year after year, makes it a really consistent and understandable thing to go through. 00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:15.740 In a little under two minutes' time, I'm going to lose control, and we'll be going to the newsroom at 11 o'clock. 00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:30.800 And there's an age-old argument that says the ABC should always play the beeps, the six time-coded beeps, run by the atomic clock or whatever it is. 00:17:30.800 --> 00:17:31.100 Yes. 00:17:31.100 --> 00:17:34.020 Now, that's a very old idea. 00:17:34.020 --> 00:17:37.000 You know, it's very 1930s British radio. 00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:41.320 However, people still miss it in 2025. 00:17:41.320 --> 00:17:44.380 Cridland, where do you stand? 00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:53.440 If it was up to me, I'm afraid I am on the side of both getting rid of the beeps, of the pips, as I would call them, being a Brit. 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:58.400 And I'm afraid I'd also get rid of the beautiful, majestic fanfare. 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.460 You're a heathen. 00:18:00.460 --> 00:18:01.660 You're an absolute heathen. 00:18:01.660 --> 00:18:02.680 But I am also a foreigner. 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:05.800 So, therefore, don't go listening to what I say. 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:06.900 What would you do? 00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:09.480 Now the news. 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:12.420 I mean, I would have something which is a little more modern. 00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:17.920 I think it's fine on Radio National, but I think on ABC Radio Brisbane, I think something a little bit more modern. 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:22.300 But there again, you know, something that people recognize, and that's an important thing, too. 00:18:22.300 --> 00:18:23.140 Thanks for coming in.