WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.620 Well, speaking of futures, should ensuring radio has a future be a priority for the government, for lawmakers? 00:00:08.620 --> 00:00:13.320 Do you think the modern world would be okay without live radio? 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:17.220 I hate to ask on 0467 922 666. 00:00:17.220 --> 00:00:23.260 Now, if you're listening in the car right now, how easy was it to tune in to 666? 00:00:23.260 --> 00:00:25.240 Did you use the app? 00:00:25.240 --> 00:00:26.080 Did you go analogue? 00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:28.440 Was there a button that you could just press for AM? 00:00:29.240 --> 00:00:46.460 Because commercial radio and audio, also known as CRA, is actually urging the federal government to legislate protections that make sure Australian radio stays easily accessible on connected car dashboards and also smart speaker platforms. 00:00:46.460 --> 00:01:01.320 Because, as you may know, new EVs and cars are being manufactured without those kind of familiar knobs and dials, the familiar AM-FM radio buttons replaced instead by, well, complex digital displays, let's say. 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:04.840 James Cridland is a radio futurologist. 00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:06.620 James, good afternoon to you. 00:01:06.620 --> 00:01:08.200 Good afternoon, Alice. 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:10.540 Please first talk me through your job. 00:01:10.540 --> 00:01:17.880 So I work with radio companies across the world, helping them understand what the future is. 00:01:17.880 --> 00:01:22.520 And I will get to that at the end because I'm not sure I'm prepared for the answer just yet. 00:01:22.520 --> 00:01:28.080 But why should protecting radio be a priority, a government priority? 00:01:29.080 --> 00:01:41.340 Well, I mean, what's going on here is that CRA is essentially a little bit nervous that radio in cars is getting harder to find. 00:01:41.980 --> 00:01:53.860 So if you've been in a new car recently, particularly a new electric car, then all of the usual knobs and buttons have gone away and there's essentially a big touchscreen in your car. 00:01:53.860 --> 00:01:57.320 Sometimes radio is really easy to find in there. 00:01:57.320 --> 00:01:59.660 Sometimes radio is rather a lot harder. 00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:15.060 And so one of the things that CRA is asking for, and the ABC also, by the way, agreeing with them, is that it needs to be really obvious and really clear how to turn on the radio in your car and how to find the radio in there. 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:16.640 And that's an important thing. 00:02:16.640 --> 00:02:28.460 And I think, you know, certainly when you look at, you know, Australians using radio in cars, well, 84 percent of Australians are using radio in a car in the past month. 00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:34.820 You know, we all know how important radio is and we don't want it to go away. 00:02:34.820 --> 00:02:44.560 So when it comes to threats to the future of radio, how much is difficulty accessing it in a car threat among all of the other things? 00:02:45.540 --> 00:02:49.340 Well, radio is actually really important in terms of cars. 00:02:49.340 --> 00:02:54.080 It's a very important place where people listen to the radio. 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:58.940 Actually, listening at home is the number one, but listening in a car is the number two place. 00:02:58.940 --> 00:03:04.800 And for many people, listening in a car is the main place where they listen. 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:10.580 So it's important that we make sure that radio is as accessible in a car as possible. 00:03:10.580 --> 00:03:14.380 Now, I guess the question is, how do you tune in? 00:03:14.440 --> 00:03:21.960 And, you know, and the details of what CRA is asking for, because they're asking for laws to be passed, which is always an entertaining thing. 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:32.280 What we do know is that, for example, in Europe, DAB Plus, which is in Canberra, it's a great way of tuning in to 666 ABC Radio Canberra. 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:43.620 DAB Plus is mandatory in cars so that you can make sure that you've got all of the choice that you do on the radio dial. 00:03:43.780 --> 00:03:44.920 So that's an important thing. 00:03:44.920 --> 00:03:52.700 But it's also important, of course, to make sure that those radios, not just you can find them easily in your car, but you can use them easily as well. 00:03:52.700 --> 00:03:56.740 And I've just bought a brand new electric car. 00:03:56.740 --> 00:03:59.640 It has no AM in there. 00:03:59.640 --> 00:04:00.880 At all? 00:04:00.880 --> 00:04:01.860 At all. 00:04:01.860 --> 00:04:03.320 No AM in there at all. 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.240 And that's not particularly unusual for an electric car. 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:12.220 But also the radio in there is not that easy to use. 00:04:12.220 --> 00:04:22.940 And so there's quite a lot of work going on, you know, in Europe and in other parts of the world, making sure that the radio, however that radio works, is really easy to use. 00:04:22.940 --> 00:04:28.780 And works the way that you would expect a radio to work rather than anything else. 00:04:28.780 --> 00:04:37.600 So, yeah, but the loss of AM in cars is clearly a concern to the national emergency broadcaster, the ABC. 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:40.520 Well, yeah, this is exactly what I was going to say. 00:04:40.520 --> 00:04:46.020 What then does it mean, James, for emergency broadcasting if you don't have access to AM? 00:04:47.020 --> 00:04:57.460 Well, in most cases, you do have access to DAB, and DAB is not talked about as an awful lot on the radio for reasons that I don't fully understand. 00:04:57.460 --> 00:05:05.620 But it's a great way of – it's just a normal radio with an antenna and everything else. 00:05:05.960 --> 00:05:18.820 But it gets ABC Radio Canberra and all of the other ABC radio services in crystal clear FM quality, if you like, and also makes it much easier to find additional stations in there. 00:05:18.820 --> 00:05:21.100 It's just a free radio like anything else. 00:05:21.100 --> 00:05:26.620 It's a great way of tuning into all that the ABC has to offer. 00:05:26.620 --> 00:05:29.620 I'm loving this cross plug, by the way, James. 00:05:29.620 --> 00:05:30.080 Thank you. 00:05:30.080 --> 00:05:31.180 There you go. 00:05:32.440 --> 00:05:38.440 You know, so DAB is in the majority of cars now on the road in Australia. 00:05:38.440 --> 00:05:44.400 It's in pretty well all of them if you buy a brand new car and is in, you know, pretty well all of them. 00:05:44.400 --> 00:05:53.960 So – and, in fact, if you look at the amount of radio consumed here in Australia, 40% is not consumed on either FM or AM. 00:05:53.960 --> 00:05:56.520 It's either on DAB or it's online. 00:05:56.520 --> 00:06:00.480 DAB, by the way, more popular than the apps. 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:05.200 So, you know, so I don't think it's a real concern. 00:06:05.200 --> 00:06:15.160 One of the things I personally feel is that ABC local radio should be on FM in the capital cities because I think that's an important thing as well. 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:29.620 But, you know, that's kind of a side note to making sure that it's important to find a radio in the first place and making sure that car manufacturers continue putting radio in there. 00:06:29.740 --> 00:06:36.020 What is it that AM did to not get – to, I guess, have the access reduced to it? 00:06:36.020 --> 00:06:38.360 What's the difference between AM and FM? 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:44.980 Why does FM still – is able to be heard in a car and AM not in some? 00:06:44.980 --> 00:06:46.600 I don't understand that at all. 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:56.460 Yeah, there are some technical reasons, particularly if you've got large electric motors in your car, then, you know, obviously you get quite a lot of interference. 00:06:56.460 --> 00:07:06.320 You'll know, you know, driving under the tram tracks that it gets noisy with the electrical interference. 00:07:06.320 --> 00:07:12.940 And that gets much worse, you know, if you're driving around an electric car. 00:07:12.940 --> 00:07:14.200 So that's one reason. 00:07:14.200 --> 00:07:17.280 But the other reason, and I hate to say this, is that AM is dying. 00:07:17.280 --> 00:07:18.480 AM is going away. 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:22.380 AM has been turned off in most European countries. 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:29.320 Germany, I know, Germany, France, the UK, it's being turned off right now. 00:07:29.320 --> 00:07:35.200 Places like Norway and – I mean, places like Norway, they've even turned off FM. 00:07:35.840 --> 00:07:40.700 So, you know, so AM really is going away. 00:07:40.700 --> 00:07:45.440 It is very difficult if you go into your local electrical retailer. 00:07:45.440 --> 00:07:49.500 It's very hard to find a modern AM radio. 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:53.280 You can still buy some, of course, but it's getting harder and harder. 00:07:53.280 --> 00:08:01.660 Hence why, you know, I mean, you know, I'm talking to you from the sunny state of Queensland. 00:08:01.660 --> 00:08:05.180 And, of course, we had Cyclone Alfred not so long ago. 00:08:05.180 --> 00:08:11.080 And it was really important to be able to listen to my local ABC station. 00:08:11.080 --> 00:08:13.840 And so important, they put it onto FM for a while. 00:08:13.840 --> 00:08:14.840 Yeah, okay. 00:08:14.840 --> 00:08:22.880 So that is relatively straightforward to do then, switching, for example, local radio here in ABC 666. 00:08:22.880 --> 00:08:28.040 If need be, in an emergency, we could go to air on FM. 00:08:28.580 --> 00:08:30.560 Yeah, I mean, if need be. 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:38.060 But that's up to – in this particular case, it was up to the fine people at ABC Classic and asking them, 00:08:38.060 --> 00:08:41.880 would you mind if we broadcast on your Facebook instead? 00:08:41.880 --> 00:08:42.580 Yeah. 00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:43.380 Right, okay. 00:08:43.380 --> 00:08:45.900 And so that will be a conversation. 00:08:45.900 --> 00:08:52.260 But, you know, the important thing is, particularly for ABC local radio, 00:08:52.380 --> 00:08:56.860 is making sure that the people that pay for it get great value out of it. 00:08:56.860 --> 00:09:00.780 And that means that being able to tune in is a really important thing. 00:09:00.780 --> 00:09:04.700 And this is what part of this work from the CRA is about. 00:09:04.700 --> 00:09:07.700 It's making sure that broadcast radio continues in a car. 00:09:08.660 --> 00:09:14.600 And this CRA work is also talking about smart speakers. 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:19.120 I don't know if you've ever tried listening to the radio through a smart speaker. 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:21.240 Sometimes it works fantastically well. 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:23.140 Sometimes it's really hard. 00:09:23.700 --> 00:09:30.660 And so, you know, another part of this work is asking the government to actually mandate in law 00:09:30.660 --> 00:09:36.760 that if it's a licensed radio station, it should be really easy to get on a smart speaker. 00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:42.960 And these laws have already been passed in countries like the UK and other parts of Europe. 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:48.840 So this isn't a new idea, but it would certainly help Australian radio broadcasters here. 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:55.900 This is 666 ABC Radio Canberra coming to you on either the app or 666 on AM. 00:09:55.900 --> 00:09:57.380 It depends where you're listening from. 00:09:57.380 --> 00:09:57.840 Your guest. 00:09:57.840 --> 00:09:59.440 Or, of course, on DAB. 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:00.680 Or on DAB. 00:10:00.680 --> 00:10:04.360 The main event that we've just been discussing. 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:08.320 You're hearing from James Cridland, a radio futurologist. 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.860 And on 0467 922 666, hi, Alice. 00:10:12.860 --> 00:10:17.460 I'm at the supermarket listening to you via my phone and hearing aids. 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:20.340 Definitely 666 in the car, says Andrew from Hawker. 00:10:20.340 --> 00:10:20.940 Thank you. 00:10:20.940 --> 00:10:22.180 Love to hear it, Andrew. 00:10:22.180 --> 00:10:27.740 Rest assured that when setting up my new EV, says another listener, radio stations, 00:10:27.740 --> 00:10:32.720 when setting up my new EV radio stations, the stations were clearly listed in alphabetical order. 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:35.880 So ABC was very easy to add to my favourites. 00:10:35.880 --> 00:10:39.040 Yes, this is one advantage of being at the ABC, I guess. 00:10:39.040 --> 00:10:42.200 Hello to you, Rodney on the text line, who says, hi, Alice. 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:44.320 DAB has very limited range. 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:47.000 ABC only goes as far as Bungendore. 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:49.160 Not much good if you live in Braidwood. 00:10:49.160 --> 00:10:50.900 Good point, Rodney. 00:10:50.900 --> 00:10:57.080 And another listener is asking, James, what is the transmission range and rural coverage of DAB in Australia? 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.900 Not good enough is the quick answer. 00:11:00.900 --> 00:11:03.780 It needs to cover it needs to cover more. 00:11:03.780 --> 00:11:08.960 I think, you know, from my point of view, I look at DAB as being something for the cities. 00:11:09.560 --> 00:11:15.420 And I think FM is still very capable for much of the rest of Australia. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:27.740 But there is a real issue that, you know, obviously, DAB, you know, obviously, from a point of view of making it easy to tune in, AM radio goes hundreds of miles. 00:11:28.280 --> 00:11:45.160 And it is a bit of a concern if AM radio is taken out of cars, which is, you know, one of the things, you know, it would be lovely if everybody makes sure that they have an AM radio at home, if you can find one, you know, and make sure that you've got batteries just in case. 00:11:45.540 --> 00:11:50.320 But doesn't it make sense, James, if you said so yourself, AM is dying. 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:56.720 So I guess it makes sense for cars to not put a dying technology in a car. 00:11:57.540 --> 00:12:09.580 Well, I think what the CRA is asking for here is making sure that it's easy to find radio, first and foremost, that there is radio reception. 00:12:09.580 --> 00:12:15.980 DAB Plus will cover all of the all of the metro in Canberra. 00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:21.940 It obviously doesn't cover, you know, once you're driving out of there. 00:12:22.060 --> 00:12:25.820 And that's something that in time would be great if there was a bit more of that. 00:12:25.820 --> 00:12:34.160 But I think, you know, certainly making it easy to find is one thing, but also making it easy to work is another thing. 00:12:34.160 --> 00:12:41.460 You know, the new the new EV that I have, it's it's, you know, you know, it's got a great radio in there. 00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:45.620 But my goodness, you need to work hard to actually work out how to figure it out. 00:12:45.620 --> 00:12:46.400 Absolutely. 00:12:46.400 --> 00:12:49.680 You know, yes, it's not it's not that easy. 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:52.760 James, you're a radio futurologist. 00:12:52.760 --> 00:12:55.640 I do feel slightly nervous asking this question. 00:12:55.640 --> 00:12:57.920 But what is the future of radio? 00:12:57.920 --> 00:13:01.480 Well, have you considered retraining, Alice? 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:02.240 Yeah, I have. 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:03.840 No, I'm joking. 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:04.920 I'm joking. 00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:08.000 The future of the future of radio is super good. 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:09.000 Is it? 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:10.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:13:10.280 --> 00:13:17.980 I mean, you know, human connection and shared experience will always be what we need from from the media. 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:21.560 And radio is such a wonderful place for that. 00:13:21.560 --> 00:13:24.860 The way that we get radio will clearly change. 00:13:24.860 --> 00:13:30.340 You know, clearly you can see that AM doesn't have a long term future. 00:13:30.340 --> 00:13:32.780 FM has a much more secure future. 00:13:32.780 --> 00:13:37.420 But also, of course, you've got things like podcasts, on demand audio such as that. 00:13:37.500 --> 00:13:39.080 You've got the ABC Listen app. 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:42.540 You've got other apps are also available as well. 00:13:42.540 --> 00:13:46.420 You know, so you've got lots of different ways of tuning in to the radio. 00:13:46.420 --> 00:13:51.340 But radio itself is still seeing record audience numbers. 00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:51.840 Wow. 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.220 It's still it's still doing very, very well. 00:13:54.300 --> 00:13:57.960 We're spending less time with the radio. 00:13:57.960 --> 00:13:58.560 Absolutely. 00:13:58.560 --> 00:14:03.180 Because we have so much other things to to consume. 00:14:03.180 --> 00:14:11.000 But in terms of people tuning into the radio, we're seeing we're still seeing, you know, tremendous figures out of that. 00:14:11.220 --> 00:14:18.520 Can I make a distinction, James, there between the podcasts and Listen app and live local radio like we're doing now? 00:14:18.520 --> 00:14:21.260 Because I feel like they're very different things with the podcast. 00:14:21.260 --> 00:14:22.340 It's pre-recorded. 00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:22.960 It's on there. 00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:26.140 But this what we're doing now, it's so immediate. 00:14:26.140 --> 00:14:32.900 And I'm hoping that this format, live local radio, still has a promising future as well. 00:14:32.900 --> 00:14:35.100 Oh, certainly it does. 00:14:35.100 --> 00:14:46.060 And I think it's interesting when you look at apps like the ABC Listen app, you can see that the majority of time spent in that app is listening to live radio. 00:14:46.060 --> 00:14:48.580 It's not listening to all of the other things in there. 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:49.740 You can get audio books in there. 00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:51.340 You can get all kinds of other things in there. 00:14:52.340 --> 00:14:54.700 So it's all to do with live radio. 00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:58.940 And that's why those apps are really, really important. 00:14:58.940 --> 00:15:06.200 When I launched, I actually launched the first radio app in the world, which was very exciting back in 2005. 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:15.420 And, you know, and it was fascinating to see how many people were using that as their primary way of listening to the radio. 00:15:15.420 --> 00:15:29.240 And you've just heard, you know, somebody who's who's managed to Bluetooth their mobile phone to their hearing aids, which is a great way of quietly, of quietly tuning in while you're while you're doing other things. 00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:31.500 You know, it's a great opportunity. 00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:49.880 So I think, you know, the future of radio is fantastic and is, you know, and has a long, long future for live radio talking about real relevant things for audiences, whether that's local, whether that's a community of common interest, all of that, all of that stuff. 00:15:49.880 --> 00:15:53.200 The future of AM radio is a different conversation. 00:15:53.200 --> 00:16:02.320 But I think if you're making content, if you're, you know, if you're if you're on the air, I think you've got a fantastic future. 00:16:03.040 --> 00:16:12.320 On the text line, great topic listening to the ABC radio app won't be any good when I can't get mobile reception during a bushfire or charge my phone. 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.520 AM is vital for emergency broadcast. 00:16:14.520 --> 00:16:15.380 Yes. 00:16:15.380 --> 00:16:22.640 And I've bought myself one of those crank analog solar radios just for that exact scenario. 00:16:22.640 --> 00:16:25.040 I wonder if you might do the same as well. 00:16:25.040 --> 00:16:30.080 Analogue of Farrah says, re radio waves, spelt a nice pun there. 00:16:30.400 --> 00:16:35.400 I listen on the big old slash new telly and it's the best sound, including a mute button. 00:16:35.400 --> 00:16:42.480 I thought that all the stations there were just a mirror of those on DAB plus, but maybe not, as Art Sound FM isn't. 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.040 Does James know, asks Analogue of Farrah. 00:16:45.040 --> 00:16:51.980 Well, yeah, I mean, there are a ton more stations on a DAB radio. 00:16:51.980 --> 00:16:52.840 Yeah, absolutely. 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:59.560 So if you've got a TV, you'll find you'll find the ABC stations on there. 00:16:59.660 --> 00:17:01.060 This is on Channel 25. 00:17:01.060 --> 00:17:04.680 You'll find ABC Radio Canberra. 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.820 But there's also a load of other stations. 00:17:08.820 --> 00:17:20.880 Art Sound is on DAB in the Canberra area, as well as, you know, as well as radio stations for kids, as well as country radio stations. 00:17:21.320 --> 00:17:33.880 Well, on the country ones, James, I've heard of this app called, I think it's called Radio Garden, and you can actually just click on any country in the world and tune in to their local station and listen in on what they're hearing. 00:17:34.300 --> 00:17:35.940 I'm assuming you've heard of this as well. 00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:37.360 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:38.840 Yeah, that's a great app. 00:17:38.840 --> 00:17:47.580 And being able to tune in and find out, you know, and find great radio stations from across the world is a fantastic thing. 00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:53.740 So, yeah, I mean, you know, there's a whole bunch of choice out there once you get to internet radio. 00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:59.480 I think the benefit of DAB is that, you know, it's just like a normal radio. 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:00.400 You don't have to pay. 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:01.480 You don't have to pay extra. 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:05.060 It doesn't use any of your data or anything else. 00:18:05.820 --> 00:18:07.880 But it just gives you a lot of choice. 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:14.600 And, you know, as one of the people on your text line said, it gives you all of the stations available in alphabetical order. 00:18:14.600 --> 00:18:16.540 So it couldn't be easier. 00:18:16.540 --> 00:18:18.560 And ABC Canberra right at the top of the list. 00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:24.320 So when AM disappears, James, what do you think happens to little old 666? 00:18:24.320 --> 00:18:27.140 Do we just switch to FM, stay digital? 00:18:27.140 --> 00:18:28.140 What do you reckon? 00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:35.020 Yeah, well, so what's going on, for example, in Norway is that they turned off AM a long, long time ago. 00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:38.180 They turned off FM, I think, 10 years ago now. 00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:41.620 And all of their radio stations are on DAB. 00:18:41.620 --> 00:18:44.540 And that seems to be working very nicely for them. 00:18:44.540 --> 00:18:50.200 And similarly, exactly that's going on in Switzerland right now. 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.520 So, you know, again, not much AM. 00:18:52.520 --> 00:18:55.960 And, you know, and they're turning off the FM dial. 00:18:55.960 --> 00:19:01.080 So I'm sure that things will change as we move forward. 00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:05.320 But the important thing is that live local radio won't go away. 00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:07.320 That is such a relief to hear. 00:19:07.320 --> 00:19:09.580 And, James, what a pleasure it's been speaking with you. 00:19:09.580 --> 00:19:11.420 Thank you so much for coming on the program. 00:19:11.420 --> 00:19:13.040 It's been great, Alice. 00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:13.740 Thank you for asking. 00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:14.220 Cheers. 00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:14.920 Take care. 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:20.900 James Cridland there, a radio futurologist, assuring you that, yes, there is a future for radio. 00:19:21.260 --> 00:19:27.780 That's whether or not AM radio has, well, actually, no, AM radio doesn't necessarily have much of a future. 00:19:27.780 --> 00:19:33.300 But thanks to Andrew from Hawker who gave us a buzz to say that this is fascinating and that AM has the biggest reach.